#i have so many ideas for confrontations between jason and bruce on this topic but does my brain words no

[shadesofredhood]

You know Jason should be the class conscious robin, but then dc would need to pull its head out of the rich's collective asshole and face up to their own classism so it will never be acknowledged in Canon.

[bigskydreaming]

Something else to keep in mind is the way things compound? Like for instance, I’ve seen a mini trend of fics lately focusing on the issue of Dick dropping out of college or not wanting to go, which for the record, I feel is another way of building up to the idea that he and Bruce have all these fights during this period that are two way streets instead of like....what canon actually was (reminder that in the canon that Dick actually dropped out he and Bruce actually were never really NOT on good terms, like there’s never been a big fight in the comics about this topic so.....incheresting).

But anyway, my point is its worth keeping in mind that how you frame something at one point in a narrative like.....ideally, you want it to mesh up and align with other things you’ve brought up throughout the narrative, and not accidentally contradict yourself narratively.

I mean, this is really the big gripe most Dick Grayson fans have with his fanon characterization overall:

The fact that it just doesn’t make sense.

In Jason-centric fics that are after his resurrection, how often is Jason utterly convinced that Dick can’t even wipe his ass without Bruce’s approval? And yet in Jason-centric fics that are before his death, how often is Jason thinking about how Dick and Bruce are constantly fighting and Bruce can’t seem to do anything without Dick objecting? Reconcile these two things. They make no sense.

Same thing with fics that talk about Dick being the emotional glue of the family, the one keeping a cool head to calm down everyone else when they’re all taking shots at each other.....until randomly he just pops off without warning because he’s just that hot-tempered. These things mesh, how?

Same thing with Dick being frequently referenced as idealized by the hero community......but every time he interacts with someone like Roy or Kori or other Titans he can’t seem to avoid pissing them off and creating epic grudges. Make it make sense.

Or how Dick disliked or didn’t care about Jason to the extent that he only references him as a cautionary tale because of one line in canon......but the whole damn story where he kills the Joker because of Jason doesn’t count.

Or how its not okay to blame Dick for his own rapes but both of his major breakups which are intrinsically linked to the actions of his rapists like....were clearly and objectively all his fault somehow.

Dick Grayson fans aren’t on board with most of fanon because you can’t sell people on a constantly conflicting characterization that makes no sense and has no internal consistency.....you can only cater to people who don’t NEED to be sold on that because they’ve already decided they’re down with hating a character or largely ignoring him.

And I think people have gotten so used to not thinking twice about contradictory takes on Dick Grayson that they unintentionally undermine their own fics by contradicting themselves without even realizing it.

Like its ridiculously common to come across fics that reference Dick being beloved and charming everyone at the society galas they all have to go to.....but these fics take pot shots at Dick’s name, fashion, mannerisms etc all throughout it just because the author likes it or fans expect it or whatever reason.

But actually THINK about it:

Think how snobby the socialites at these galas are characterized as being any time its Jason their noses are turned down at.....and then look at like.....the constant jokes you as the author make YOURSELF at Dick’s very name, fashion and circus origins......how on Earth does it make ANY sense that these same people aren’t doing the same damn thing about Dick? That they’re actually any more fond of him than they are Jason, if no matter how charming he might be in the moment, the second he turns around its just as easy and likely for them to make a joke about his circus background or name as it is for writers and readers? If you can’t resist doing it, you really think snobby one percenters would bother in-universe?

Hell, they’d be more likely to hate him BECAUSE of his name, his fashion, etc.....because think of how often people not so subtly infer that he’s making a bad choice when he refuses to go by a different name, or dress more accordingly to normal fashions, etc.....

Dick has a million ways he could more easily fit in with the society he was brought into and ease his passage through it, but he puts his foot down at practically every opportunity. The idea that everybody is just dazzled by him at these galas makes no sense because the most consistent character choice made by Dick throughout the decades is that he refuses to CONFORM to others’ expectations of what he should be like. 

EVERY SINGLE CHOICE he makes from his name to his wardrobe to his costumes to his education to his city to his living arrangements and on and on is in complete and utter DEFIANCE of what people expect of the eldest son or ward of Bruce Wayne, Prince of Gotham, and that’s by Dick’s conscious and consistent choice. He knows damn well how to be more what people want or expect of him, and that’s not what he wants so he says mmmm but also how bout no.

Dick constantly embodies the idea that you can take the boy out of the circus but you can not and will not take the circus out of the boy no matter what environment you place him in or who you surround him with. He will not allow it. He will not play along.

In what universe is that going to endear him to the very people who would most likely view his choice to prioritize the very things they look down upon as something he consciously PREFERS over their projected expectations or assumptions?

Its not.

Personally, I think Gotham high society despises Dick Grayson no matter what they pretend to his face, and he’s perfectly aware of it. And probably gets some kind of trollish glee out of it because fuck them too, anyway.

(And all of that is WITHOUT even taking into account the fact that a good number of the people at these society galas all along were looking at Dick as their future property, given that they were Owl members who knew all along what they intended for their Gray Son. These people simply do not view and treat Dick as an equal. Its impossible. There’s no way).

Or then back to the idea of Bruce and Dick’s fights in his later teenage years being a two way street....

The core problem at the root of all this is the very idea of a two way street implies a certain give and take. A clashing of equals.

And that’s just not the reality in ANY continuity.

Because the question is, in any given fight between Dick and Bruce in ANY canon....

When does Dick ever WIN these fights?

When does Dick get the outcome he wants OVER what Bruce wants? When does Bruce ever cave? When is it NOT Dick leaving the manor without getting what he came for, or even being kicked out? When has Dick ever been able to say no, I’m NOT fired, or no, I’m NOT giving you control over what happens with Robin. Even when he DOES confront Bruce on these matters, Bruce STILL infamously never caves. He never actually apologizes or admits wrongdoing, he still usually tells Dick to leave. Like I said, basically the only time Dick’s ever got the upper hand in an argument was over the college thing and that time it wasn’t even a fight! Bruce didn’t actually care that much! That was the good timeline! LOL.

But there’s never actually a reversal. There’s no real precedent for Bruce caving to a teenage Dick Grayson and saying hey you know what, you’re right here, I’m overstepping or I’m in the wrong or I’m the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about because our divergent life experiences here have mine as less relevant to the issue in question than yours do?

It doesn’t happen.

And here’s the problem with that:

Dick’s a literal genius. Every member of the Batfam is. Its how they’re able to do what they do. They’re ALL smart as fuck, capable as fuck. Put any of them in any other situation where they’re the only Bat present, and everyone usually defaults to them. They know what to do, they know what call to make, their approach is borne out by the narrative as being the correct approach. Their intelligence and strategy is validated by the narrative, with Dick being no exception here. In fact he’s particularly NOTED within canon narratives for being the guy everyone in the DC universe trusts to lead them.

Now.....imagine being this guy, who while although still a teenager, is in his late teens, and has YEARS of leading his own team under his belt. Years of being responsible for the lives of teammates and civilians. Years of becoming aware of and comfortable with his own natural brilliance. Years of becoming confident in being capable of making the right call when the situation demands it. Years of learning to TRUST in his ability to make the right call, to know the right approach, because not only are people relying on him to make those calls, he needs to be able to trust he can make them in order to have the confidence to follow through and DO so instead of being frozen with indecision or trying to pass the decision off to someone else, which he NEVER does?

With all that....and even with all due respect to Bruce’s own genius and experience....

What are the chances that in all the times that Bruce and Dick clash in his late teenage years....

Dick is NEVER right?

And yet.....when in any of these conflicts.....is he ever validated in that, versus shut down by Bruce who insists his way is still right?

Imagine being an acknowledged genius with years of experience and responsibility under your belt, but NEVER getting to be right in any arguments with your father, even when just based off pure freaking statistics, its frankly impossible for you to be 100% wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME?

Do you see where the two way street thing starts to fall apart? How can it truly be a two way street if part of the reason the two of them so often end UP aggressively opposed to each other during this time period.....is because of how many times previous encounters have only ended ONE way no matter WHAT?

It makes sense for Dick and Bruce not to clash as much during their younger years, because even the most stubborn kids do understand on a fundamental level that they have things to learn from more experienced adults. And Dick has never been someone mindlessly predisposed towards conflict. He didn’t become an exceptional acrobat by the age of eight by butting heads with his parents every time they tried to teach him, he couldn’t have. He KNOWS how to listen, he KNOWS how to acknowledge when someone else is right. 

But as he grows older, when he has more and more experience under his belt, more and more confidence in his own insights in large parts thanks to Bruce’s own efforts in buttressing his confidence in his younger years.....what happens when the balance of who is right and who is wrong in their arguments NEVER EVER starts to shift in his direction even a little bit, no matter HOW much more experienced he seems to get....and what happens when communicating this problem, this imbalance, to the person that really matters here, Bruce himself....still inherently requires Bruce accepting blame and acknowledging even just in THIS case, the idea that he’s not always right at this point and Dick has insights that can challenge his?

Of course there’s going to be more and more conflict....but can you truly argue that its a two way street, even just based off THIS? Is the teenage son truly to blame for being frustrated that he’s not allowed to ever be right, because the thing getting in his way is his father never ever being willing to back down or cave or not have the last word?

This is the sort of inherent contradiction I think lies at the heart of a lot of conflicting viewpoints here. It doesn’t matter how much lip service is being paid to the idea that Dick is intelligent, that Dick is respected, if all your content continually bears out the idea that actually no he’s not, because Bruce is always right, Dick never is in the right in arguments or conflicts.

The latter evidence just is not aligning with the former claims, and thus readers are innately forced to make a choice as to which to believe.....and more likely than not, they’re going to err on the side of substantiating whichever stance actually has more narrative support behind it, in any particular story.

See what I’m saying?

You need to make sure your story is ACTUALLY saying what you think you’re saying or you intended to say....or you end up undermining your own intentions.

Anyway. Just throwing that out there. 

[bigskydreaming]

tremsing82 replied to your post:

Feeling a mood to write some...

I would love for Jason to find out about Bruce’s abuse to Dick. Like Jason is from a abusive household and after he returned as red hood Bruce didn’t hold back but for Jason to find out the abuse Dick received from Bruce outside of the mask would be interesting to read.

This won’t be a prompt I use for this, solely because this is actually a BIG thing with me, and something that pops up a lot in various of the longer projects I work on off and on in my spare time. Mostly in a series of one-shots that are meant as a BFTC fix-it, that pretty much revolves around the idea of Dick and Jason eventually reconciling in the aftermath of Bruce’s perceived death, and bonding over the idea that they’re pretty much the only two people in the world who knew Bruce the way they did - at both his best and his worst. 

How to grieve for someone who at times you both loved and hated, who helped you and who hurt you, who was everything you wanted to be and everything you never wanted to be, all at the same time, at different times, at the strangest times.

So Jason finding out about the things Bruce has done to Dick, like in NTT #55, is of course a central part of that, as is Dick finding out the specifics of what happened between Bruce and Jason in UTRH (because I firmly and forever believe that Dick has zero idea about the batarang to the neck, just like I have trouble seeing any way in which Dick would have known about RHATO #25 before being shot and not had a serious reaction with Bruce). To me, a huge central part of these two brothers’ conflict in specific, is this perception they both have (with valid reasons) that the other has at various points had a relationship with Bruce that they would kill for.....even while being perfectly aware that at other times, their relationship has been nonexistent. 

But these specific actions of Bruce would inevitably be the cold shock of reality to them both, because I firmly believe this is the thing they could never explain away or justify to themselves.....they can reconcile the idea of Bruce hurting them on specific occasions, and not deem it abuse even as intimately acquainted as they are with the realities of abuse given everything they’ve lived, seen, and fought against in others....because they don’t want to accept that Bruce is capable of that, that they’re capable of....’submitting’ to that, so to speak, without leaving him behind...a huge part of them needs to keep him on a pedestal even when they’re furious at him. He played such a large role in shaping their lives in ways that they are grateful for that they have trouble juggling that with this perception of him too.

And due to their own individual self-esteem issues and negative self-perceptions (as well as desperate need for his approval, even when they vehemently deny they need or want it)....they’ve always been largely able to justify to themselves, or explain away his worst treatment of them.....but only so long as they’ve been able to convince themselves it was just them. That Bruce was only this way with them. 

Because one of Dick and Jason’s commonalities is that their self-deprecation is only the equivalent of their willingness to throw themselves under the knife for someone they care about, and that their negative self-perceptions are constantly being reinforced with what they perceive as additional evidence that various others are better than them. Do deserve more than them. Don’t deserve to suffer the things they’ve suffered. So IMO, my take has always been that Dick and Jason deep down love Bruce and the specific image of him they want and at times even need him to be....to such an extent that they can justify or explain away most anything he does to them at his worst....but I don’t believe for a second that either of them could ever do that if confronted with some of Bruce’s worst behavior with the other, or someone else they cared about.

So, the illusion born of their best memories of Bruce and that has so much to do with their inability to call him out on his shit even when faced with the reality of him in their worst memories of him.....can only hold, so long as they’re both one hundred percent convinced that it was just them. No one else. Because they must have deserved it. But that’s not an argument they’d ever make for anyone else, especially not one of their brothers.

But yeah, so this is a topic that as you can see, I’ve thought a lot about, lol, so its definitely something I’ve written about in depth in various WIPs that will at some point see the light of day (I’m posting WIP-phobic these days, due to uh....several years between updates on various published WIPs). Like I said, mostly the BFTC fix-it fic, but it pops up in various other things as well. There though, it has a super large presence because I personally can’t imagine all of that not coming up in their grieving processes for Bruce, because as much as most of us would like to romanticize deceased loved ones at all times, and never think of them without rose-colored glasses on, I can only draw upon my own experiences and its been mine that this isn’t always true, even when you really, truly and deeply love the person in question. Grief is an ugly, messy process, and it dredges up a lot. You’re often confronted with everything you don’t want to remember every bit as much as the stuff you fight to hold on to. 

So I’ve always really wanted to tackle that, as well as the dichotomy of being an abused kid who loves their abuser as much as he hates them, because with parents its just not as simple as pretending that the good emotions don’t exist, or ignoring the memories that truly are positive and had a positive influence on you and who you became, the parts you’re genuinely grateful to them for and wouldn’t want to imagine being without, even if you could. Its not easy to love some people, but its no easier to hate them, and to me, that’s Bruce and his relationship with his two eldest in particular, to like a T. 

Plus, I’ve always really liked the idea of exploring what kind of relationship Dick and Jason could have if these two brothers whose relationship at so many points has been largely at a distance and based off hearsay or imagined beliefs....like, in the aftermath of a tragedy like this, only finally started to really get to know who the other was, as adults, once the illusions they’d both been clinging to about their varying relationships with Bruce was finally stripped away. Also, I really wanted to explore the family dynamics that would result from the two of them specifically, with their contentious relationships with Bruce at some of his worse moments...like, forming a united front to kind of ‘protect’ Cass, Tim and Damian’s perceptions of Bruce, because for the most part at that point in time Bruce was still their hero, for all intents and purposes. Tim hadn’t yet IMO truly been disillusioned with Bruce at that point, Cass certainly hadn’t, and Damian might not have perceived things in the same way the others had, even if he had been fully aware of everything, but Bruce to him at that point was still kind of...a larger than life, mythic kind of figure. 

And I wanted to delve into the idea of Bruce’s two eldest children, who perhaps deep down wished that they had been left with just their cherished childhood memories of him and never had to remember the times that made them feel disillusioned with their father, like....the two of them acting in concert to kinda...protect their younger siblings’ own various cherished views of their dad, like....I just see that as being something very important to them, for reasons they’re not entirely clear on (or perhaps just don’t want to examine too closely).

Plus, of course, Bruce eventually returns as we all know, so.....holy conflicting emotions, Batfam.

But you’re absolutely right that Jason does and will have a LOT of thoughts and a lot to say on the subject of NTT #55′s events, both to Dick, to Bruce eventually, his therapist, etc.

Because not only does Jason NOT like the idea of his second father having abused his elder brother at all, to any degree, for any reason.....

You better fucking believe it that IMO, Jason Peter Todd has a fucking LOT to say about their dad using HIM, the child he ‘saved’ from an abusive home, as his EXCUSE to abuse his other child.

"Oh, I’m sorry, you were so fucked up about your previously-abused-kid dying that you thought a good way to handle it would be to abuse your other kid so that maybe when one day he died too, he and I would finally have some things to talk about? Yeah I think the fuck not, Pops!”

Anyway. Like I said. I obviously will not be expanding on that particular topic at this point in time.

Obviously.

Not even a little bit.